The Modern LeadHer Way

[093] How To Secure Your Next Job Offer with Recruiter, Anna Smith

• Emma Clayton • Season 4 • Episode 93

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Anna Smith shares her journey of founding ALS Recruitment at 25 years old and how the recruitment landscape has evolved into a candidate-driven market where employers must adapt to attract top talent.
We cover
• Her story of Starting a recruitment business at a young age despite skepticism
• How its currently a candidates market
• The normalisation of remote and hybrid working arrangements post-COVID
• Why job hopping is no longer seen as a red flag for employers
• The benefits of directly calling recruiters rather than just applying online
• Best times of year to look for new roles (March-July being peak hiring season)
• How to stand out in interviews by asking if the interviewer has any concerns
• Successfully returning to work after career breaks of 7-15 years
• The rewards and challenges of running your own business

If you're interested in connecting with Anna and her team at ALS Recruitment, you can find them on LinkedIn where they post regularly about available roles in the insurance industry: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-smith-a1692856/


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Emma Clayton:

This is the Modern Leader Way, the podcast for corporate career women who want to feel good on their way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello, and welcome back to the Modern Leader Way. Today, I am joined by the lovely Anna Smith. Welcome, anna, so pleased to have you here.

Emma Clayton:

This is a conversation that I've wanted to have for a while. I actually came across Anna and her team at ALS Recruitment probably around Christmas time, and I was just really struck by I don't know. There was just something about you and your team and the way you were posting on LinkedIn and talking about these jobs that were out there and encouraging people. Just, I think humanising the job description, I think is what I saw and I just really liked it. There was a bit of humour in there. They were very lighthearted, you were very approachable and I just thought you know what I want to have these women on my podcast. So I reached out and you were like, yeah, why not? Not the usual kind of request, but here we are. So thank you for saying yes, and why don't you give us a bit of a brief introduction to who you are and we'll go from there?

Anna Smith:

Thank you. I mean we try to be human. I am Anna Smith. I have ALS recruitment. I started up coming up for eight years ago now we focus on the insurance market. So we've got Terry who focuses on the London market, kat and I focus on the regional market and Molly helps support us. She's also started to sort of move into more of a resourcing role as well. So, um, we're out there trying to do our best.

Anna Smith:

Um, you know, I I set up the business because, as like many industries, um eight years ago, there was no flexibility offered. Um, when you went off and and had a baby, um, recruitment being the industry that it was, you know, you had to sort of you know, be in really for half past seven in order to catch people before they started work, and then you needed to stay until seven o'clock really to to speak to people after work. So, um, that's not ideal when you've got a young family. So I have always wanted to own my own business, but at 25 I felt like I was too young. Um, other people told me that I was probably too young and it was a bit risky, and that actually did the complete opposite and made me want to do it and prove everybody wrong. So I did, and here we are, yeah, and here we are, and I've since gone on to have three other children. So I have four daughters. A big, big responsibility to try and lead from the front always.

Emma Clayton:

So yeah, you, I love that and I also love that I get a bit of that rebellious kind of streak in me in terms of like when people tell you can't do something, it's like, well, watch me will watch me absolutely and actually when I so I started off in hairdressing I was a hairdresser yeah, um, and it do you know what?

Anna Smith:

it was the best grounding I could have ever wanted from like a service-based industry, because you really do have to provide a good service and it also teaches you things like retention. So what a lot of people don't think about is sometimes transferable skills from sort of roles like that, because actually there's got to be a reason. People come back to you every six to eight weeks to have their hair cut and if you're not delivering a good service, they're not going to want to come back to you. So I've kind of taken that on into recruitment really. But I remember when I left and said that this is what I was going to go and do and one of the directors of the company that I was working for turned around and said, oh Anna, recruitment can't see it and I used that. I was like I'll never forget that, but that was like a driving force to make sure that it worked In some ways. I'll never forget that, but that was like a driving force to make sure that it worked In some ways.

Emma Clayton:

I'm thankful Absolutely. That is so cool. I actually had a conversation when I took redundancy after 20 years in insurance and I sat down with one of the senior leaders that had always championed me and he had created this role for me Like it was a temporary role just to get me through 12 months and then I could find something a little bit more settled. And I went and and said thank you, but, um, I'm going to take the redundancy. And he said, oh, you know, most people spend the money after 12 months. They're calling back for a job. And I went won't be me. And I was like, determined that is not going to be me ever. So here we are, seven and a half years later.

Emma Clayton:

So I think, I think we, uh, we found our driving force in the people telling us that we can't do something so you started a business at 25 and so you hadn't come from recruitment either.

Anna Smith:

So I I was in recruitment for three years prior to starting up my own business, but but then you could say that that's really like that's not a lot of experience.

Emma Clayton:

I love that. And so in eight years, what have you? Or even longer than that, 10 years or so, what have you seen change in this kind of like recruitment landscape? Are there things that have like are now outdated, that you saw when you first kind of got into it? Is it that kind of evolving market that you saw when you first kind of got into it?

Anna Smith:

Is it that kind of evolving market? I think so. I think one of the most prominent things is that employers don't have the control really when it comes to hiring. It's all about what the candidate wants, and if you can't meet that, then they'll move on to the next company. So it's very and and we've seen that a lot over the past 12 months I would say, um, so things like compromising on salary. So you would put forward what you're looking for. If you don't get that, there's no compromise kind of like this is what I'm looking for.

Anna Smith:

I've really thought this through. This is what this job means to me, um, and if the employer can't meet that, then it's, you know, it's kind of, it is what it is. There's no, there doesn't seem to be. I don't want to say compromise, because people sort of really do understand their worth and they, you know, a lot of the time it is about education as well. Like you know, when we're recruiting, we will speak to candidates about salaries and give them a realistic approach, um, but there's no like give and take so much anymore, and that's quite a prominent thing that I that we have seen, especially over the last 12 months. So if you are looking to hire, for example, um, and you're putting out a salary range you know, then it. You know candidates will want the top end and that's kind of it really yeah, is it fair to say it's like a job seekers market?

Anna Smith:

absolutely. And you know, I think it's because of things like and I know I don't want to keep, you know, no one wants to keep talking about Covid but it was such an instrumental thing that changed the way a lot of things work, um, and there used to be sort of peaks and troughs and kind of.

Emma Clayton:

You know it used to swing and roundabouts that, um, you know it was an employer's market and then a candidate market, then an employer's market in a candidate market, but it's been very much from a candidate perspective and they've had the ball in their court for longer right yeah and presumably I mean, yeah, covid, everyone sort of shut down and worked from home, right, and I think that forced some of these kind of really older old school kind of companies that were very much about presenteeism to you know their hand to right, trust their employees to like make the best of it.

Emma Clayton:

So how much I'm kind of hearing grumblings from a lot of people that I work with that there's now more lip service paid to that kind of hybrid working, remote kind of thing and they're actually trying to bring back in people to the office because they're paying for this expensive place space right, potentially in London or other cities, so they do want to make the most of their offices. So how much are you seeing like a genuine acceptance of this hybrid remote kind of option to get the right candidates in, and how much of it is lip service do you think?

Anna Smith:

I think it's an interesting question because, you know, I I've worked remotely personally for the last seven, eight years and it's served a purpose, because my kids were small and I've still got a one-year-old, so I've kind of gone back. But, um, you know, I do find that at a certain point, you know, you do kind of want you back and actually going to an office does help with that. But I think, in terms of employers and you know what they're saying versus what they're doing it goes back to the fact that it's a candidate market so they have to accommodate. Yes, I would say, a lot of companies are, they do want that office presence. But I think there are sort of more genuine reasons behind that. Like, you know, company culture and kind of creating that team environment.

Anna Smith:

It's really really difficult to do remotely and it's quite difficult to sort of, you know, train people remotely. It takes longer, you know. So I think that there is a place for it. There are companies that are doing it because, you know, you know that's just what they want to do and they're not really so fussed about what other people have to say about it. But yeah, I think the more genuine businesses you know are really flexible. I think sometimes the other ones who want to force people back into the office. It's more of a control element perhaps. Yeah.

Emma Clayton:

And I guess, at the sort of of senior, more senior level that you're kind of looking at in terms of the roles that you're recruiting for, there is like a need for that more senior presence to encourage people to come in and like give a reason to be there and um, and to be able to lead, like from being there rather than always being absent, I guess.

Anna Smith:

So there is a fine balance, I think it's such a such a complex topic, I would say, um, hybrid versus remote versus fully office-based. I think it really they all have a place. Um, it just depends on what type of role it is, what type of business it is. Um, I don't, you know, I would never agree with someone sort of being in the office full-time. That's kind of a little bit unnecessary. You know, I don't think people can get away with that now, um, and I don't think there are a lot of businesses out there who are doing that. Anyway, I think the mindset has changed. If you can be flexible, they generally are.

Emma Clayton:

So how much, um kind of, how much do you get to influence what the job spec looks like when a company comes to you and says help us find the right candidate?

Anna Smith:

I mean we prefer working relationships where we can provide that. I'm going to say consultative advice and guidance, because actually, you know, that is where we excel and that's where pieces of recruitment work best and they're more efficient. If we can have, not an input, because it's somebody else's business, but we're experts. You know experts within our area. You know the hiring managers or decision makers that come to us at experts in their area and it's kind of like marrying the two up. So I think you know, regardless of what we say, some companies will take it on board and others will just do their own thing anyway, as we all do sometimes.

Anna Smith:

You know, um, but the best working relationships and the most successful pieces of recruitment come from, you know, a mutual understanding and a mutual respect on. You know where. We know our market and you know, you know, yeah, yours. And you know sometimes we are able to influence a decision, um, but a lot of people are flexible for the right people as well. You know, if you get an outstanding candidate or you're, you know um, you're going for a job. But you just need that bit of flexibility again. You know, if you get an outstanding candidate or you're, you know, um, you're going for a job, but you just need that bit of flexibility again. You know we can kind of help to influence that decision a little bit.

Anna Smith:

I would never force anyone to like force to to hire somebody, not how. I don't think that's. That's not a successful piece of recruitment. You know we're dealing with people at the end of the day and you have your own minds and you you want your own things and you know trying to force someone into a job or force someone into hiring someone never ends well, so yeah, what do you, what would you love?

Emma Clayton:

potential candidates or people thinking maybe they're stagnating in their role, they're thinking like they've hit a ceiling, they're potentially looking for a job but you know they've got, they've got it easy right a lot. I think this is the problem. It is a problem, but we come up against this kind of comfort level, almost like it's comfortable where I am. It feels like too hard to look out there. Um, you hear, you still hear a lot of people that are applying for roles. They don't even hear anything, so it feels like a big chore. Why would someone come to you, your company? Um, what would you love them to know about recruiting these days? Because I don't think it was ever really on my radar back in the like I'm talking like 10 years ago, when I might have been looking for a role. What's the benefits of them coming to you and what are some of maybe the myths you want to bust about recruiting agencies?

Anna Smith:

I mean, I think we're in the same category as insurance brokers and estate agents, to be honest. So, but at the end of the day, I think you, we, everyone, will say that they really care. But we do really care about what we do and we try our best as much as we can. We're human at the end of the day and, like you rightly said in the beginning, we do try and take a human approach. We do try and, you know, we're relatable, we're personable. We are just out here trying to do a good job and I feel like we do do a pretty good job, to be honest. We sort of regularly send out sort of feedback forms and things like that, and the feedback that we get is always really positive and we welcome, you know, constructive feedback as well, because we want to do better.

Anna Smith:

But I think ultimately everybody, I would say, is classed as a candidate. So you get, you know, lots of people saying on LinkedIn and other forums and things like that, that you know there's a candidate shortage, and I'm not willing to accept that. If I'm being honest, I just think either the jobs on offer aren't good enough or they're not flexible enough or, you know, they're just not ticking all the boxes, but I think there is a job out there for everybody, and I think if you're sat there in a position where you're like, oh, you know, I'm quite comfortable, you know there is always a job that's better than the one that you're in. You just haven't found it yet.

Emma Clayton:

Rather than trawling through LinkedIn, perhaps, and the job ads on there, maybe it's just pick up the phone and have a chat and do you know what?

Anna Smith:

I was just going to come to that? I think what we've got in the habit of now is just applying for a job.

Anna Smith:

So, click apply. You know, easy apply AI applying for jobs and actually you know you do get lost in 200 other applications and it is. You know, we try our best to go back to everyone and actually that's the initially why I brought Kat on in the first place, because I just was struggling to keep up with everybody and it was my business and I want the perception of my business to be as as good as it can be. Um, and seeing people through covid, crying on the phone and you know so absolutely destroyed that they haven't heard back from the 130 applications that they've made. I just made it. I mean, I'd always been someone who will just pick up the phone and tell someone if they haven't got the job, I'll just let them know.

Anna Smith:

Um, but I was struggling to keep up with the sheer volume of people that were applying for jobs. So I brought Kat on to help me with that because that was something that was really important to me. Um, and you know, if you're getting 200, 250 applications for a job, that's a lot of people to go back to and you do get like the AI's quick message sort of things and even then that doesn't make me feel very comfortable because I just feel like if someone's applying to a job with you, you should at least just give them something. If they're not right for the job, at least a bit of advice, or you know what's, what's in it for them. You know, even though they're applying for the job and they're not right, what's, what can they take away from it? Yeah, so we do try and always do that.

Emma Clayton:

You've got Kat there literally doing this as a full-time job, in terms of like she is the I mean she's resourcing now as well.

Anna Smith:

So she's kind of like. But initially, when when I first brought her on, it was just to kind of the. The work volume and the sheer amount of people that were applying for jobs at the time was just too much to keep up with and I didn't. I didn't sit right with me that some people weren't getting a response, um, because I was only one person at that point, so amazing so it feels like it is, and we'll make sure there's all links to you and the team on LinkedIn.

Emma Clayton:

I guess LinkedIn is the best place, isn't?

Anna Smith:

it. Yeah, I mean, we're currently um in the process of having a new website.

Emma Clayton:

So yeah, I'd rather yeah, so we'll make sure that's there and, I think, encourage everyone just to get in touch or just to follow you, that's that's what I did. Follow. You get a flavor for the sort of roles that you're putting out there and then just pick up the phone. I think you come to London a bit, do you.

Anna Smith:

So I tried to come up to the city sort of twice a month. Um, I meet with Terry. Terry, you know she's Essex based, so she's like she can get into the city really easily. So so, yeah, nice what about um redundancies?

Emma Clayton:

do you see a lot of people come to you because they've been made redundant? Um, because that just seems like it's happening more and more, I'm guessing with like companies merging we're certainly seeing it in the life insurance industry, which is kind of where I come from. But what's your best advice to someone that's sort of in that redundancy situation?

Anna Smith:

I think there's sort of the redundancy situation and then there's that sort of consultation period, right.

Anna Smith:

So it's kind of like you're waiting to to find out, um.

Anna Smith:

I think the the one thing that you have to be mindful of is that if you wait, there is a chance that you could be found another role within the business that you're probably going to have to interview two, two, three times, maybe four, um. But then if that's not the case and you are being made redundant, you're also going to be made redundant with a lot of other people at the same time. So you are probably better off exploring the market to see if there is something that you are interested in in at in that moment in time. Because if it so happens that you sort of do get that redundancy, then you're going to be sort of in amongst it with you know 10 other people potentially, depending on how big the business is and how many redundancies that they make. So, whilst a lot of the time, if you've been somewhere, like you said, you know 20 years, you know you've got a lot of loyalties, but when it comes down to you know being made redundant, it kind of takes that element away, I think yeah.

Emma Clayton:

So someone's got the confirmation they've been made redundant. They've been there 10, 20 years. They're walking away with a decent package, decent enough. That's going to like give them a buffer to take time off and take some time out for a year or so. I am a big advocate for doing that, because I feel like when you've been employed your entire life, like you've gone through school, then you're employed. Or maybe you went to university, now you're employed like you don't know anything else. And it's actually when you give yourself that space and time out like I host time out retreats for this exact we just allow people to take a step away from that just for mums who just need

Emma Clayton:

mums are very welcome, right. But I am like a big advocate for like, really like taking that space and time out to just check in, like do I actually want to go back into this industry in a similar role? Because I think we just get on this path and we don't see the little twists and turns it can necessarily take until we take a step back. So I think actually, redundancy is a great opportunity to step back and also then, once you've had some space, you can almost like, if you know, yeah, I want to get back into what I know the best, because it's what I do the best, what I enjoy. Then you're so much more grounded in that and so much more confident and sure of what it is that you're bringing to your next role. That I think it's like incredibly powerful to take that step away. But I think there's a lot of people that get in a bit more panic and think I have to have that, I have to have that known next step and and this kind of open space is a little bit more scary.

Anna Smith:

So yeah, I think so. I think probably what's really useful for people to know, especially if you are in a situation where you are looking for a job, is that a lot of companies. It gets a lot busier around, sort of the end of March, beginning of April time, all the way through, usually until about June, july time.

Anna Smith:

So, if you are being made redundant in November, which is a really rubbish time of year to be made redundant, and you see it quite a lot. Actually, a lot of companies will make people redundant in November, december, which I think is incredibly unfair. You know, if you've been given, you know if you work somewhere for 20 years, let's just talk about it from that side. You've worked somewhere for 20 years, let's just talk about it from that side. Um, you know, you know that you can, you know I want to say safely say that actually you can take a bit of time off and reflect and see what it is that you want to do, knowing that the job market massively picks up around March, april time. Yeah, so I think that's really useful for people to know.

Anna Smith:

It does get a bit busy around September to October. Um, I would say sometimes it goes into the beginning of November, ready for people to start either before Christmas or after Christmas, and then sort of January. Towards the end of January, february time does tend to go quite quiet and what we tend to find is a lot of people get quite stressed and worried, um, if they've been out of work since November and they're still not finding anything, and that's quite normal for it not to be massively job rich. But then again you've got the other side, where people are made redundant unexpectedly. They don't have, you know, a lot of savings or they don't get a payout, or you know. But I think it would be a good education piece for businesses if they're looking to make redundancies. Maybe I don't know how it works, but you know trying to make it so that it's a bit easier for people to go off and get a new job, potentially depending on the time of year.

Emma Clayton:

So yeah, no, that's really interesting actually, and I guess you get a lot of um people almost like wanting to line up jobs for when they've got their last bonus right and then they can.

Anna Smith:

Oh, yeah, I mean that's definitely a massive factor as to why you know that time of year becomes quite, you know, job rich, because you get people who collect their bonus and then leave, or you know, don't get a pay rise or they don't get a promotion, or you know, and and also a lot of companies were like, right, it's the end of the tax year, we're now gonna, you know, use start sort of, you know, have the budgets ready to to kind of hire across that that period of time? So so yeah, there's loads of different reasons. But you know, if you are being made redundant in August, september, and you've got a good, maybe six, six months worth of you know, redundancy money, you know you can sort of safely say that actually you know you're going to be okay. By the time it gets to March it does get busier. That's not to say that jobs don't come up, because they do, but towards the end of the year it's normally the last bit of the budget perhaps.

Emma Clayton:

So yeah, absolutely, and and I'm just sitting there as you're talking, thinking, well, if I was being made redundant now, I would probably and I could take some time. I'll say I could take the rest of the year off. It's probably like, is it in my interest to like reach out to you guys now and just put myself on your radar so that you're at, you're actually thinking about me as the year progresses in terms like the particular roles is. Is that how it works? Still in recruitment, can you keep?

Anna Smith:

I, I, I worked with somebody a few years ago who was due to be made redundant and actually she was, um, she was on maternity leave as well and there was sort of floatings of redundancy at that point and I mean, she wasn't due back to work until like the September. But I spoke to her in like the March I think it was hear that if you're on maternity leave or you're kind of in that situation, you know where you're due to go back to work. Um, you're panicking at that point because you're like you know what am I going to do? And um, I sort of said to her I said listen. I said don't panic about it right now. I said, because you've still got sort of three, four months left.

Anna Smith:

Um, you know, let's have a catch up sort of in the summer. And we did, and I managed to secure her something else to start in the November. We started working together properly in the September. So you know it can work. You know, because sometimes we don't always have something for you right this second, because sometimes we don't always have something for you right this second, but that's not to say that in three, four months time something might not come up. That is the perfect opportunity that you would definitely want to hear about.

Anna Smith:

Yeah, I also have another example. So I had a phone call for someone who was due to, who was sort of at risk of redundancy, and she'd not even had her baby yet, so I know so she was thinking about January, february next year, and again, it's that panic that sets in for people. Yeah, it's a difficult one, isn't it?

Emma Clayton:

It's a difficult one and you know there are there are options and there are people that have got your back it.

Emma Clayton:

So it's a difficult one and you know there are there are options and there are people that have got your back, so it's yeah, absolutely find, find the people that are gonna be looking out for you and kind of make those build those relationships now, and also, like there's going to be so many people in the person's network right, that is gonna also be people that they get to reach out to and just tell them their situations.

Emma Clayton:

They've got them in the back of their mind as well, I think. I think, when you are faced with something like redundancy which I think for some people, for me, I thought it'd be the worst case scenario, I thought it would be the worst thing that could happen for me actually turned out to be like a blessing, um, and I actually saw it as an opportunity as soon as it happened, which surprised me. But it's incredible how many people come out and would work and sort of say you know, let me know if you need anything, and I think it's really just you're not alone, as as as isolating as it can feel, you're really not alone. So, um, I love hearing that. Like I think, yeah, just get the process started right, even if you can't take that time off, which I love reputation is never wasted.

Anna Smith:

At the end of the day, love that what?

Emma Clayton:

um, I know we're talking about um insurance in particular, because that's your industry, but this I think a lot of this applies to whatever industry people are in, right it's. It feels like this is pretty general in terms of trends that we're going to see across recruitment, so I just wanted to make that point in case someone's listening. That's not actually in insurance, because I know not all my listeners are um, what about? So we talked about redundancy.

Emma Clayton:

I feel like when I started so we're talking like nearly 30 years ago it was kind of like seen as a bit of a badge of honour that you'd worked somewhere for 20, 30 years and you didn't like you've given your loyalty to this one company and, as a result, you kind of like worked your way up and around the organisation and you've been looked after. And it's kind of almost frowned upon when people kind of jump ship and went somewhere else. It's almost like they were chasing the money. You know they were just going there to get the big pay rise, um, and I'm not always sure how it served people to hop jobs. It was almost like again seen as oh, they're a bit flighty and they can't stay in one company for long. Has that changed, like what's, what's the view on people wanting to move across the industry and perhaps across lines of business or um.

Anna Smith:

I know we talked about insurance and reinsurance even like that kind of hopping around the industry, like what's, what's your view on that and how that's seen so I think um years ago it was seen as a bit of a red flag if someone were to sort of job hop but we're talking, you know six months here, one year there, you know six months. If you are sort of in a company for a couple of years, um, and you decide to move on, then that's okay. I think covid, again going back to it but it did really shape the way people view things now. It's kind of a there's not really as many questions asked, you know anymore, um about that. It's just an understanding of okay, there was a better opportunity that was on the table for you and you decided to go for it again.

Anna Smith:

It kind of also goes back to the fact that it's you know when you are a candidate and you're applying for jobs, the ball is in your court and it's the same if you're an employee. If you're not being looked after and you're not being listened to, you've got no loyalties to them anymore. Because you really feel it, so you will move on and you will find something better than where you're at at the moment, and there is an understanding for that when you're job searching, um. So I think somebody moving around is not seen so much as a red flag anymore that's good.

Emma Clayton:

That's good to, I think, to hear and just to put it out there. So you mentioned.

Anna Smith:

AI earlier, and this is a fascinating thing.

Emma Clayton:

So obviously we're not going to get away from AI. It's only going to like be more and more prevalent in our lives. Yeah, and I'm guessing there are ways in which employee in like recruiting companies are using it. Recruitment companies can use it, but also like candidates can use it. How, what are you seeing like the ways across the board that AI is kind of becoming a useful tool that's going to enhance the whole process and experience of recruitment?

Anna Smith:

I mean for me personally as a business owner and recruitment consultant in the insurance market. I didn't like it to begin with. I was like, oh no, you know, because I'm a service based industry, you know it's, you know. So I like, oh no, no, no, no, um. But actually we can use it in our industry to enhance experience for candidates and clients that we work with. So you know things, we're currently looking at a new crm system, actually um, that has some really cool ai tools integrated in it. So you know, we would normally send out, for example, like a bit of a bio on the candidates that we're representing when we send over cvs, um. And now this piece of um software will kind of pull out things from people's cv and kind of create a bio.

Anna Smith:

We haven't used this system yet, but this is what we've been shown and it's pretty cool because that is consuming sometimes and then you can kind of personalize it on top of that.

Anna Smith:

But you know it's kind of it helps to add to the experience of other people. So that we've got more time to give to you um, which I think is a really important thing to mention. You know, to spend time talking to you about what it is that you really want from a job and an employer and vice versa, um, so that's kind of how we're using it in our business, or looking to use it in our business, so that we can kind of give more time to the things that we enjoy and the things that you know we're kind of here to help with and in the industry, I mean, if you're applying for jobs, I mean everybody will know what it's like to make sure that you've got certain words, because if it goes through an AI system that's only going to pick it up, you know, and send it to the hiring manager. If you've got a certain word on your CV, I mean, that's also a bit of a hindrance, to be honest.

Anna Smith:

Um, what's some of the words then well, just, you know it will be things like leadership and you know it will be certain product lines, for example. So if you're motor or marine or you know whatever it might be, um, you know, if that's not picked up and not on your cv, then it you won't be sort of sent to the hiring manager, for example. So that's, that's a massive annoyance for people, and we get a lot of candidates that will say to us oh, you know, I'm having my cv looked at because, um, I need to make sure it's compatible to go through a system.

Emma Clayton:

And presumably candidates, can use AI to better or enhance their CV.

Anna Smith:

Of course people do. I mean I think kids are using it in schools to write essays and things like that, and I mean you know you could see it as cheating or you could see it as using initiative.

Emma Clayton:

I mean it's out there, isn't it. It's like how are you gonna police it? It's getting.

Anna Smith:

I mean like CVs for me went on a bit of a mission a few years ago to try and educate the fact that CVs really, like they're so outdated, why are we still using them? You know, and also what I don't understand is hiring companies are asking people to fill in forms essentially a CV, and then attach a CV. So you know there needs to be like a bit of a an education piece around. You know time to hire and how important that is to keep everybody's engagement. If you're asking someone to fill in a form and send a CV that they'll probably need to update, that's time.

Emma Clayton:

And in this day of like easy apply and all that kind of thing, what is like, what is going to make your application stand out?

Anna Smith:

Phone call always yeah, phone call. People don't do that so much anymore and the candidates that do pick up the phone are memorable because you remember them picking up the phone and also you have to really think about it from a type of job that you're applying for.

Anna Smith:

If you're applying for a job where you're going to need to use the phone and communication is really important, as it says on the job description- you know, being able to demonstrate that you can communicate via telephone which is probably the first port of call anyway is really important, and then you don't get lost in a sea of 250 CVs.

Emma Clayton:

And it keeps that humanness right, which is so so much more important now with AI taking over.

Anna Smith:

And do you know what as well? Like there is no harm in expressing if you are interested in a role. People don't do that so much anymore. So again, that will really help you stand out when you're looking for a job. If there is a job that you really really want and you've gone for the interview, say I'm really interested in this job, really like the company it's. You know, everyone tries to keep their cards close to their chest all the time and actually being honest and just saying if you, you know, if you don't ask, you don't get right. So you know love that.

Emma Clayton:

What other tips have you got for in interviews then? So someone's actually there, perhaps they're in the second round. Like what, what do you hear? What feedback do you get from companies that, like, meant that it was a no-brainer for them to hire someone because of the interview?

Anna Smith:

I think it's an interesting question because some people can perform really well in an interview and then it's not the case when they start. So I think, just try and be, just be yourself throughout the whole process, because you've got nothing to hide at that point. Um, always be, I, I would say, constructive. So, if you know, if you're asked a question and competency questions are another bugbear of mine, to be honest but if you are answering competency questions, things like the STAR method are really good to look at because it helps kind of formulate your response. And I always think of it like of formulate your, your response, and I always think of it like. I don't know if anyone remembers, but at school I was taught how to write a like an essay. So you start with an introduction, then you kind of it kind of goes down from that point and you sort of raise one argument, raise the other argument, then the comparison, then the conclusion. Try and think about interviewing in that way if you're giving an example, so you're kind of giving an overview, and then you're giving one side, giving the other side the comparison and then the conclusion on it, so you're kind of covering all grounds and I think it's really important to give detail and context to your examples Because we'll always get feedback from someone who didn't get a second interview or didn't get the job because they didn't give enough information on something and it's so minuscule. Sometimes it's so annoying, but we always encourage and I've talked about it a few times on LinkedIn.

Anna Smith:

The best interview tip that I could give anyone is at the end of the interview, when you're given the opportunity to ask questions is to ask have you got any concerns around my skills or ability to do the job? Nice, yeah, that is a question that employers aren't or interviewers aren't expecting. You generally get like an off the cuff answer. You can get a really good understanding of maybe how that interview is gone, unless someone's really really good at like not giving anything away but also say, for example, like anyone at the beginning of an interview isn't as comfortable as they are towards the end. So the answers you give at the beginning are probably a little bit more scripted, with a little less personality, and if any hiring managers have got any concerns around the the questions answered at the beginning, you can kind of re-answer them and off that feedback.

Anna Smith:

I had one candidate in particular said and and he wasn't even going through an interview through myself. But he said to me. He said, oh, anna, I'll use the interview tip and they told me that they were worried about, you know, the fact that I had loads of experience and would the job be enough for them? And I managed to reassure them in that moment and then he was actually he'd gone on to get offered the job and was quite happy. So it really does. It gives you a bit more of an insight because from a recruitment perspective, the most frustrating thing is is when we know someone has the experience and the feedback as to why they didn't get second interview or offer is because they don't have enough experience and you're like, ah, you know.

Emma Clayton:

But I think we also need to be mindful of the fact that not everybody knows how to interview and get the best out of people, especially if they've been in a job they've been in under eye for 20 years, like they have been for an interview for 20 years. So, yeah, I love that tip. That's brilliant. Yeah, just gives you that opportunity to like deal with it in the moment and get a good understanding of how the interview is actually gone.

Anna Smith:

Um, and yeah, I mean, it's a really useful one, so I would encourage anyone to use that love it.

Emma Clayton:

I remembered actually the question that I was going to follow on from before. Um, it was like someone like me that's been out of the industry for now seven years If I was to want to come back in, and I've had all this experience running my own business, albeit in like a slightly different industry I'm coaching women in insurance, in leadership but what are my chances of actually getting a look in now because of the fact I've been out of the industry?

Anna Smith:

I love the fact that you've asked this question because that is an area that we are really good at, so I've actually brought quite a lot of women mainly back into the insurance industry after having to take time out for whatever reason.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah.

Anna Smith:

But it's, it's more of an education piece, I would say, for employers, because it's like riding a bike, you know, you don't? You don't just forget how to ride a bike after you've sort of been riding a bike for years and years and years, you know. So actually it's just making sure that the business has, you know, enough training and support there. But you know, for example, I got referred to somebody who was an underwriter for a long time and she left underwriting to have her children and raise her kids, as a lot of women have to do sometimes. You know, in in any industry, but it seems to be quite prominent in the insurance industry that there's a lot of women who sort of had a really good sort of 10, 12 year career as an underwriter, for example, left to have their kids and once their kids are at a certain age, they want to come back into it.

Anna Smith:

Um, I was able to have a good conversation with her, reassure her that actually this is something that she can do, and there were a few things that she said that were, like, you know, probably will resonate with so many other people. Um, you know, for for taking time out, you know she wanted time back for herself, um, and that career and to continue on from where she left off, really, um and she was really quite not very confident that that would happen because of the industry she left six years ago was very different and not as flexible as what it is now. Um, and anyway, I worked with her and found her a fantastic company to work with that took her on and she's doing so so well, um, and that's just one of many stories that I can share with people so I think you are sat um and you've sort of had seven, eight years out.

Anna Smith:

I'm working with someone at the minute who had um I think it was like 15 years out, and she's due to be made an offer soon to go back into underwriting. So it can happen. You just have to find the right company and work with the right you know people to to help push that for you. So it's absolutely possible ah.

Emma Clayton:

I love that and it's. It's really interesting because I just think you get so like taking that step away. You're going to get so much like different experience, absolutely life experience for one. And then if you are like running your own business or something or have like trying your hand at something different, you're going to learn so much like I am such a different person than I was when I left and I know that I would do things so differently if I went back now. Not that I want to, but it's kind of like really fascinating to think about how that experience would be seen or whether it would be like discounted and like I can't you kind of hope that they would look at the holistic kind of yeah, I think you know you're you're never going to walk back in on the same salary that you left out.

Anna Smith:

I think that needs to be. You know that's a a kind of a consideration, you know, um, because there will be sort of a skills gap at that point. Products move on. You know systems change, um, but it's absolutely possible to get back into it. So and I think, just just to add to that, I know obviously you've talked about sort of your experience being 20 years in one employer. Actually, you know, since you've kind of left that and had your own business and learn all these different skills, you can also say that's the same. When you move companies, you learn to adapt to different ways of working and gain different skill sets, and that is also very welcomed. When you're joining a company, that's seen as a positive.

Emma Clayton:

So much, goodness in there. Is there anything, before we go into kind of like, your view of leadership as a business owner? Is there anything you haven't touched on in terms of the recruitment landscape and what you want people to take away? If they're listening, I think we've covered a lot. Yeah, I think I have covered a lot, for sure, okay, well, let's let's get into this then. So I'm just interested like, you've started your business so young and and you're a mum of four young girls um, I think you've done incredibly well and you've got this business with three people and, yeah, I just love everything that you've created. So tell me what you've learned about, like leading a business and a team and all the things in this last eight years about leadership that you want other people perhaps to to know about. I think.

Anna Smith:

I'm still learning is probably the the biggest thing for me I've. You know, I brought on Kat three years ago. Um, I've had Terry since last December and actually I worked with Terry previously in a different business when I was early 20s, so I take that as a massive compliment that she would want to come and work for my business. I think leadership I haven't learned all of the tricks of the trades and I'm not an expert in leadership, but I just I'm trying to do run a business that provides a really good service and take, take on people who really believe in that as well, believe in that as well, and I think that if you're on that mission, then other people see that it kind of helps to sort of give them a driving force as well.

Anna Smith:

I'm very human, realistic. Running a business is really stressful, like you know, alongside children you're constantly pulled between. You know driving your career in that kind of career driven mindset and then you're like you know, no, but I'm a mom and you know I need to be there for the kids and it's it's a constant battle, but I think trying to bring everyone together and just trying to motivate each other. You know there's a big thing in recruitment that you know it's it's when it's not going so well. That you know demonstrates your kind of capability and, you know, I think supporting each other when it doesn't go so well is is probably a really really big thing as well. So, yeah, I'm still learning.

Emma Clayton:

So any leadership, advice and guidance, then great well, I've got a good podcast you can listen to. I think what I see is just someone that's very passionate about like doing a really good job for the industry and doing it like differently and by differently we just mean like keeping that human touch when technology is moving on so fast, when you know, sometimes things feel like candidates could feel so alone and unheard and unseen. I think it's you just bring that real connection piece and I think that's what I see and I think this these are the things in leadership that are just often not valued, and it's like having empathy for the person on the end of the phone that has been through 130 applications and hasn't had any responses, and and like knowing that you want to do better by those kind of people. I think that they're kind of the leadership things I think I've heard throughout this conversation, which I just want to reflect back to you. So keep up the good work. Um, we forget right as business.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah, yeah totally oh yeah. And just on that last note, then why would people want to own their own business? Or like because that's another option, right, when people are leave, thinking about leaving or thinking about going to do their own thing, it is an option to not just go and get another job, but to actually set up your own business, like what's the thing that you want people to know about that? You've talked about how hard it can be, but like, what are some of the rewards for actually taking this route?

Anna Smith:

I think it's. You know, if you're leaving something to go and set up your own business, it's all on your terms, right. So you know you don't I mean don't get me wrong it's not easy in any way, shape or form and you're going to have stresses and worries that you'd never had when you were employed. But you know, working till 10 o'clock at night, for example, you're doing it for yourself, so it's a very it hits very differently and, yes, you're exhausted, but it's all to kind of, you know, to benefit you and your family and whatever else that you, you want in life. Um, I'm a massive supporter of people who want to go and set up their own businesses, and and at any age, I think, as well. I think there's some sort of like judgment around people doing it when they're younger, um, or at any age. You know, even if you're sort of later on in your career and you want to go and do something completely differently, just do it. You know what is the worst that can happen.

Emma Clayton:

They'll be giving you a call.

Anna Smith:

Exactly. And again, you know we've we've kind of covered the fact that actually you know you can go back into the industry. It's not, you know, I mean my, my kind of fail proof was, if all else fails in recruitment, I can just go back to hairdressing. There you go. I mean, all is not lost, exactly. So you know, just try it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not the end of the world. Ah, I love that. It's simple, really, it is. It's simple, isn't it? So, you know, just do it.

Emma Clayton:

I do think it does take a massive leap of faith, though, in yourself it does.

Anna Smith:

It does, but then I do think you know what is the worst that can happen.

Emma Clayton:

Yeah, what is the worst that can happen? Absolutely Well. On that note, anna, thank you. I've loved this conversation. I really appreciate you saying yes to coming on the show and, for anyone that wants to reach out, we'll make sure that the links are in the show notes. Definitely go check you out on LinkedIn and the team and give you a follow or even give you a call or look you up when you're next in London. So thank you so much for coming on.

Anna Smith:

Thanks for having me.

Emma Clayton:

And for everyone else. We'll see you next week and thanks for being here. And for everyone else, we'll see you next week and thanks for being here. Take care, thank you.

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