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The Modern LeadHer Way
The podcast for ambitious women redefining success, life, and leadership their way, hosted by life & leadership coach & career strategist Emma Clayton.
The Modern LeadHer Way
[105] Leadership Beyond Hustle: Finding Balance at the Top with Claire Nolan
Claire Nolan, Head of Claims and Underwriting for UK and Ireland at Swiss Re, reveals how authentic leadership creates thriving teams while protecting personal wellbeing.
Claire's journey from aspiring Olympic show jumper to insurance executive wasn't planned - it evolved through following opportunities that aligned with her values. After accidentally discovering the insurance industry through an internship, she found herself drawn to an environment where important work could be accomplished in a fun, engaging atmosphere. This early positive experience created the foundation for her career path through Australia and back to the UK.
The conversation delves into the pressure many leaders put on themselves to be constantly available. This realisation led to establishing healthier boundaries, culminating in a transformative month-long holiday that demonstrated both that work continues in her absence and that proper rest dramatically enhances her decision-making abilities.
Claire challenges traditional leadership paradigms by championing what she calls "collabitition" - maintaining healthy competition while fostering collaboration. Her philosophy centres on creating environments where individuals can achieve their best, making the collective output stronger. This approach requires transparency about expectations and development opportunities, including dedicated coaching budgets that support both technical and interpersonal growth.
Perhaps most refreshing is Claire's reframing of "selfish" as a positive force. By pursuing interests completely separate from work - like her architectural history studies - she creates space for rejuvenation that makes her more effective in all areas of life. "Selfish isn't always bad."
Ready to bring more authenticity to your leadership? Listen now to discover how balancing ambition with wellbeing creates sustainable success and stronger teams.
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This is the Modern Leader Way a podcast for ambitious, driven career women who want to feel good on the way to the top. I'm Emma Clayton and I'll be sharing with you tangible advice to help you stop sacrificing your soul in the name of success and experience more balance, confidence and fulfilment both in and out of work. Hello and welcome back to the Modern Leader Way, where I'm joined today by the lovely claire nolan. Hi, claire, hey, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1:Um claire and I reconnected after um I'd left and I think because we crossed over, didn't we? You came back from australia as I was leaving swiss, and then we reconnected at another leave and do more. Recently I had a great conversation with you, loved talking to you and talking all things power of coaching and leadership and all the things. So I invited you on and you very graciously accepted the invite, even though I know it's not the normal kind of thing that you find yourself doing in your role as head of claims and underwriting for UK and Ireland at SwissRIC. So thank you for saying yes and for being here. Do you want to give a brief introduction to who you are and what you're doing now in the world of reinsurance?
Speaker 2:Yes, I can, and maybe just very quickly before I do that. I love how you say you graciously accept it. I think I actually said to you if I think about this, I will say no, so I won't think about it, and therefore the answer is yes. So maybe that's, maybe that's a point for discussion later, but yes, so currently, as you said I am, my title is head of claims and underwriting, but I guess I would describe that as I. I lead a team here of about a little over 50 people and it's a multidisciplinary team, so different technical backgrounds and professional skills, and our role obviously is kind of as people maybe would would expect dual focus. So we have a very client facing angle about what we do. So we're here to really work with our um clients to help manage their um insurance portfolios. But equally, I'd say, uh, certainly for me, my kind of the bigger component of my role is that leading the team and supporting the, the individuals within it.
Speaker 1:so yeah, that's that's me yeah, I love that and for anyone listening who's not familiar with reinsurance, you possibly will be now, because I've probably talked about it enough. But, um, so your clients are insurance companies, right? Yeah, amazing, so obviously we detect an accent there. I would love to know how you ended up in Australia and back in the UK and all that stuff. Why don't you just take us back to what was childhood like for Claire?
Speaker 2:what did you want to do growing up, with your work in the world and, yeah, sort of start back there, yeah, so now, this is where we're going to test them how honest I'm going to be right, because this is where I go. How much do you share? I guess I have my professional view of how I answer this question, but, but let's go with the right, let's go with the non-professional view a little bit, a little bit more on this side. So grew up in Ireland and the first thing I remember wanting to do for a career was I wanted to be an Olympic show jumper. That was, that was what I wanted to be, which probably now, in hindsight, when you reflect, I also go oh wow, I was aiming very high, wasn't? I didn't just want to be here, I didn't just want to be like I want to do something with horses, I was like I want to be an Olympic show jumper. That changed slightly when I decided actually my social time was better spent with boys and friends than horse horse riding. So, yeah, that also probably says something about me as a teenager.
Speaker 2:So this is a bit that doesn't come out when I do my interviews and work, right, um, but I so I, you know, I always yeah, I came from I was always going to have a job, always going to have a profession, um, didn't really have a path beyond kind of um, yeah, I didn't really have a direct path, I just wanted to. I guess I was always kind of my mum was an accountant. Um, I thought, oh, I'll do something with numbers because I was doing a lot of like, so our equivalent of a level. So my like, my leaving start. I was doing a lot of physics, maths, the kind of analytical, structured subjects, um, but really at the same time I think I kind of knew, don't know, that that really motivates me.
Speaker 2:I felt like it was a good thing to do, it was a solid thing to do, but, like I said, I had already by then kind of like. I was like I like people, I like hanging around with people. So I really applied for a dual degree in accounting but and HR, because I thought, oh, this is going to be a nice way to do something that's practical and solid, but also a bit of people. I don't think I was brave enough to think that I could do something like philosophy or psychology, right, I still felt like, oh, it has to be something proper.
Speaker 2:But so, yeah, I applied for that. Then I started working actually I got a part-time role in an accountant during summer jobs and actually very quickly were like I do not want to do this, this is not me, so had a bit of it, don't really know, same thing, what am I going to do so applied for, um, an internship at a bank, got accepted into that, but actually and this is one of those you kind of think how things change your lives, right. So they came back to me and they were like, well, you've applied for the internship in the banking side, but we have a very, uh, young, recently set up insurance company and actually that might be we've kind of got, if we look at the dynamics of our people, that might be a better fit okay, so.
Speaker 2:I said okay, so I went into this uh insurance company um called ArcLife. If anybody um is does remember it, they were in Dublin and it was a super fun environment. I loved it right. So I just it was my first professional, like real professional environment that I'd been exposed to. There was the balance of kind of age, demographics was really good and I felt like we were doing a really important job in a really fun way. So actually that was my accidental, kind of unplanned hook into the insurance insurance industry and I've stayed ever since actually, um which people always ask me, well, how come um? And I've stayed in life and health um. I quickly moved into underwriting and then basically my career has stepped from there um. The move to Australia was go on my way to Australia. I actually moved to Australia twice. That's why I'm pausing, sorry.
Speaker 2:I went and did a very quick stint in Australia for the usual backpacker like 23 24 for a year or so. Then I came back and this is again where there's a boy in the story which I hate to say, the the boy I had been dating before I went. He decided oh, that's a great idea, and now I want to go to Australia. Um, do you want to go back? And I was like, okay, let's, let's go back. So we went back, but my stipulation that time was I didn't want to be a backpacker. I had done all of that. So if I was going back, I was like I want to work, I want to have a job and I want to have some dollars to be able to enjoy Australia. At that stage I'd had a nice little flavour as a backpacker but realised, yeah, this might be better if I'm, you know, not eating cereal for dinner. So went, got a job, applied for an insurance, an underwriting role out in Australia, was hired into an insurer and then I eventually moved into reinsurance, also in Australia.
Speaker 2:A couple of years there I was actually 10 years all up in Australia oh, wow yeah, and then I realized from a personal perspective I was like, okay, this is great, I'm living this fabulous life, my career was progressing. But it started to feel, I don't know superficial is probably not the right word but it was just a very easy life. I was single at this point in time. You know you don't have family that you need to kind of support every day. You're earning, you've got a lot of disposable income of just yeah, it's a very nice life. But at times I was missing a bit of kind of depth. Um, and I think as well as you know you age, you know my anchor points to my family and stuff started to get a bit stronger.
Speaker 2:Being away in your mid-20s is amazing. Being away in your mid-30s, you kind of start to question things a little bit. So I wanted to move closer and thankfully, swiss Re were really supportive and, yeah, I was able to kind of have a decision on did I want to move to Zurich or did I want to move to London? I was coming on my own and a few people were like oh, I think you might find Zurich a bit boring, so London might be a bit more exciting. I also love history, architecture, that sort of stuff, which was also what I had started to miss in Australia. So it felt like London was a natural choice.
Speaker 2:So I came back to London for a role in the UK team. It's actually a new team that they were setting up, which also was an attraction for the role. So whilst it was still in my existing field, they wanted to create a new team with a different focus. So that actually appealed to me. It was a okay, it's something new, it's not just a BAU role and that's what I moved for. And since then I guess my roles have just evolved and expanded, either geographically or functionally, and expanded either geographically or functionally. Yeah, so that's that's how I've got to, that's the. That's the very long story for how I've got to where I am.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant, I love it. So I always ask this question like was it accidental that you ended up in, especially when it's insurance, right, who? Not many people choose to go into a role in insurance unless it's like the actuarial route or something like that very specific. But, um, so, yeah, most of the answers is it's accidental.
Speaker 1:But I love that you had that such a positive experience of it at such a young age, because oftentimes you go into these insurance companies and it's not young and it's not fresh and new, it's it's a bit more, you know, let's just say, old and gray and, um, established and hard to move through, a little bit like sludge. So I'm glad you had that experience and it seems to be that you've kind of, yeah, you've used all of these kind of natural things that you had that you knew about yourself, kind of going up and going for education and applied it to this, kind of going up and going for education and applied it to this. When do you think you kind of saw that you had this like natural ability to lead teams and like go down that route?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I saw I had an ability, but I and it's funny, I was chatting to a mentee this morning actually asked a question about different careers, actually asked a question about different careers. So I remember having, I remember kind of processing that choice on oh, do I want to be a leader or not? So I don't. I definitely didn't go, oh, I think I could do that. It was a well to be fair, I'm not that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I as I say I kind of doubt myself more than more than back myself sometimes. But I remember thinking I could continue as a really effective solo operator and I could still contribute really well. And I think I had, you know, I think I was doing a good job and I had value to deliver. Or I could take an opportunity to try, and you know, support others and try and widen my influence. So for me it was an opportunity to okay, I just I continued to kind of do you say, paddle your own canoe? Is that I always get these things wrong? I can continue to paddle my own canoe, or I can, you know, be a cox and help, you know, help a team and help others, and as a collective, then we would potentially move things faster. Um, which probably gives you a clue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a I'm not a status quo person. I like, I like to evolve, I like things to change. So I remember going, oh sugar, what will I do? Um, and making the choice to put my hand up for a, uh, line manager, team manager role. I was very lucky. I had a lot of support because it was my first role and I came from within the team to lead the team, which, yeah, that's a lesson in itself, right, but yeah, I had a lot of support and access to kind of, as you and I discussed, I've been lucky to have access to either mentors or coaching and, yeah, I guess it seems to have proved successful that choice. So my roles have typically involved yes, I've ended up now bigger teams, bigger teams, bigger teams. That's what's gone on.
Speaker 1:And what are some of the challenges with that in terms of like on your personal life, your time, all that kind of thing have? Has it had a direct correlation with, as your role and responsibility has grown, that you've had less time, or have you bucked that kind of trend?
Speaker 2:uh, I didn't buck it until I probably recently became more aware of it, so now I'm much more deliberate. Um, so I would have been a you work like you work, whatever hours you work. I was never a nine-to-five. I used to be, uh, yeah, quite long hours, um, and I think that definitely did increase as the responsibility of my role increased. But, but I guess some of the things I learned along the way was that was me and my own expectations, right, um, and I, yeah, I think that's quite a good thing to be conscious of, not saying it's freeing, but it's good to be aware of, right?
Speaker 2:so you know, I didn't have a manager saying you know, clare, you need to be here all hours, right, right, and I didn't have the people who worked with me or for me also, you know, needing me to be online 24 seven, but for some reason I kind of was putting that on myself. I felt like I had to be on top of everything I had to have. Yeah, I had to be on top of everything, you know, and I had to be available all the time in case anybody needed me, all the time in case anybody needed me. Um, so that was probably my earlier stages. Um, thankfully, now I'm a bit more conscious of a it's not healthy for me but b it's also not healthy.
Speaker 2:Then, when somebody does call on me, right, I'm either, you know, low energy, impatient, all of those things I don't want to be with people. That comes out when I'm not managing my own boundaries and my own time. Um, and you know I'm by no means perfect, but every now and then you get a real reminder, you get a real kicker of, oh shit, you know I was a bit short there with that person. Why, yeah, okay, hang on, that's me, that's me being tired or that's me being pressured, it's nothing to do with that person. Yeah, um, and equally, I had really good reminders. I had some holidays.
Speaker 2:Actually earlier in the year, I had a whole month off and I came back and I immediately realized, you know, when people were coming to me with the stuff that had happened, you could solve things so quickly. Everything seemed so much clearer. You know, nothing was nothing, seemed like a big deal. I was like, okay, so this is what it's like when you're, you know, on your game in terms of your energy and your focus. So, yeah, I think those reminders are good, because I definitely see my own responses being less than less than what I would like if I don't manage my energy, and that definitely means time, time at work, yeah, absolutely, and also I think that's a great example taking a month off and nothing's falling apart, right, well, it doesn't end because you've taken that extended time off.
Speaker 1:So that's a really good reminder that you get to do that for yourself. Um, and there's so many things in there that you mentioned that I want to come back to. So I think one of the things in my early career I absolutely went down the same. I always said it wasn't nine to five, it was eight till late, and you switched on for seven days. And you know, adam often reminds me of how I used to have my laptop out on a Friday night catching up on my inbox and then Sunday night getting ready for the week, which, just you know, is so not the way we want to be doing things.
Speaker 1:Big part of that, I think, was because of some of the role models that you know I was working with, that you look to, and they also seem to be working very, very hard, very long hours and not wanting to be that kind of role model for other people, right, not necessarily wanting to be seen as the one, the kind of martyr that's always switched on, but you don't have to. So definitely a piece around wanting to walk the talk and be seen like setting a good example for that kind of better balance. But then you also said something very interesting around like that doubt that creeps in with every kind of like, new challenge, new role, new responsibility, broadening of reach or whatever that we do. Put this pressure on ourselves. Now we need to like, now we need to bring more of ourselves.
Speaker 2:We need to do ourselves again.
Speaker 1:Right, but actually a lot of the time when I, a lot of the time I work with women is when they are stepping into that kind of next level role. So they are really transitioning from one to the next and it might be, like you said, going from being in the team being the technical expert to now being a leader of a group of experts. Um, and the pressure we put on ourselves to perform at that next level, when actually you've been given the role as a reflection of your ability to be able to perform at that level now and and I think sometimes that just that taking that moment and being able to take a breath and go, actually I am deserving of being here. I've earned this already and I don't actually have to give any more by way of time or being seen to be in the role.
Speaker 2:It's kind of really critical for us to do that kind of stop, check and check ourselves before we get into some really bad habits yeah, and I think for me one of the good realizations there was I used to confuse confidence with ego and I think I used to feel like, oh well, if you're, you know, if you're feeling confident, then you're one of those a-holes ego. You know, I had this quite negative kind of connotations, and whether that's wrong or not, I don't. But then I started to go but hang on, why people can be confident, competent and impressive and not be an ass about it, right?
Speaker 1:not have an ego.
Speaker 2:So I think, realizing that as well and going, okay, no you, it's OK to feel no. Ok, hang on, I am confident in this space and that's OK to feel confident in this space. You know that isn't about being egotistical. Yeah, I think for me that was a good, a good kind of realization to come to. You could really separate the two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love that. To come to you could really separate the two. Yeah, no, I love that. And I also talk a lot about us wearing especially as women, but I think men do it as well wearing this mask of fake confidence, so actually showing up almost as that swan on the surface and you know the paddling duck underneath the surface, um, you know slapping behind the scenes and a lot of the work that I do now is really helping see what masks we're putting up.
Speaker 1:When we walk through the front doors, through the turnstiles and get in the lift right, what are we putting on? That is actually is masking something that we're not, we don't feel is good enough behind that mask, and how can we work on that behind the mask so that we can remove the masks and not need them as we show up? And I think this is so prevalent. And you know, I think we were talking about imposter syndrome over a glass of wine a couple of months ago and you know that this is. I've had someone that's an expert on imposter syndrome and the stats are alarming in terms of like how I think it's like 60% of women feel like an imposter on the daily and it's quite close when it comes to men as well.
Speaker 1:And oftentimes I think there's still a bit of a taboo around this whole, showing kind of your true self and perhaps some of those vulnerabilities when it comes to you know what might be the reality of what's going on for you at home dealing with sick parents or going through a breakup, or you know all this crap that you carry with you as you move through life, and then you're at work for eight hours a day, five days a week, which is a big chunk of that time.
Speaker 1:And then you're at work for eight hours a day, five days a week, which is a big chunk of that time. It's almost like there's not this allowance for the fact that we have a life that we bring with us to work and we have to leave it at the door. And I wonder if you're sensing a shift at all in terms of like we talk a lot about mental health these days and there's mental health awareness and all that kind of thing and there's support groups. Is it lip service or do you feel a shift in terms of like, what's what's happening there?
Speaker 2:oh look I. My instant gut reaction is it's probably some and some. So I think I have seen, and certainly for myself. Right, I am a firm believer in what you just said. Right, we are whole people and actually we need to be considered as that at all times, right? So when I come to work, I come to work with that backstory, I come with everything.
Speaker 2:Um, now, that's fine, and sometimes it might not be appropriate for me to to kind of put that front and center, but I absolutely believe people shouldn't know it right and be aware of it. So I think there is definitely more acknowledgement around. Yeah, hang on, you're more important. And even I don't know whether it's sure I'm probably not meant to say this to people, but I say it to people quite frequently. You know, at the end of the day, if we choose to work in corporate environment, you're a number on a payroll, right? So let's not forget that.
Speaker 2:And what is more important is who you are as a person and how you feel and how you make others feel. Right, that's important, certainly for me if I'm leading a team, for the individual, but also for the others in the team, right, because if I have somebody who's got whatever is going on. Well, say, let's use myself as an example, like it's easier. Yeah, so if I come in and I know I'm tired, short because I've got a load of crap going on, that comes out, I'm short with people, right. So you know, unless I can say to people, yeah, guys, I'm actually just knackered this week, At least they can understand and contextualize when I'm short and they know that's not necessarily what I mean when I say no, don't bloody do that right now. You know, let's pause that. So I think there's definitely more openness about we should all be who we are.
Speaker 2:Is that everywhere? I don't know, I don't know. I still think I have conversations with individuals and I go did you, did you tell him? Did you tell anybody that? Like, did you say that this is what's going on for you behind the scenes? And people still say no, right, or people still say no, I was worried, you know, I didn't, didn't think you know, and I go no, people again, we are, we are people. First, an employee on a payroll, second, um, so yeah, progress, but always more to do yeah, how do you feel?
Speaker 1:have you got many young people in your group, in your team, because I do feel like there's a shift happening with the youngsters coming through. I don't want to call them youngsters in the derogatory way, but you know the those in their like 20s, let's say. They just seem to have a different view on work ethic and maybe they look into our generation going fuck. That I ain't, and and actually it's kind of like I think they get labeled sometimes and I'm generalizing here but there's a, there's a label of entitlement for this younger generation, but actually I think they're getting a few things right. Are you seeing any of that in your team?
Speaker 2:and I'm generalising here, but there's a label of entitlement for this younger generation, but actually I think they're getting a few things right. Are you seeing any of that in your team? Yeah, so in the entirety of my team, yeah, it's probably still weighted to longer term professionals, but I definitely have a cohort of yeah, like the kind of newer A. They definitely have different expectations, right. The. Their approach to the hierarchy and this contract that we have is, you know, between employer and employee is very different. But I'm with you, I think it's refreshingly different, right.
Speaker 2:So there's less kind of. I think there's less, yeah, maybe that you know you didn't sign up to a, you know a sentence or you know I have to do everything just to get my paycheck right. There's definitely more of a okay, well, hang on, how does that work for me and what's the development for me and how would I go from here to there? You know, I think they're much more kind of do you say advanced? I don't know what the right terminology is, but they're much more kind of. Do you say advanced? I don't know what the right terminology is, but they're much more progressed in terms of being willing to ask for whatever it is they kind of think they need. I think that's super healthy. Right Again, I and it's definitely you must experience more people who actually all you're trying to do is say to them well, you realize you should just ask for that, that, but actually we have to coach people into that right?
Speaker 1:yeah, absolutely, it's not language they're used to using and this is different. Now all comes back. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you're seeing it, because I do think it's over time it's going to have a knock-on impact on the culture that we live in, because it will have to, because you know the older ones are going to start dropping off and we'll see more of this kind of ethos come in.
Speaker 1:But you know, when we look at that apologetic nature, almost that we come into life with right. I don't know if you know Dan Ryan he was my last boss and he sat me down once and he's and I've never really heard this feedback before but he said you need to be less apologetic and I was like I couldn't wrap my head around it. It's not like I was sat there saying sorry all the time, but there was something in my behavior, something in the way that I was coming across, something in my language that I was using, that was apologising for me, taking up space for me, maybe asking for too much. You know, there is that kind of subtle, subliminal kind of message that's coming across in who we be and how we come across. I think it comes back to childhood, how we were brought up, little girls are to be seen and not heard in our household. It's little simple things like that that have that lasting impact on how you behave when you're a grown up.
Speaker 2:It's funny. You should say like you weren't apologising, but I bet you if you were conscious, or because I see this, we use the word sorry, oh yeah, all the time. Yeah, time, yeah. So you know, obviously, teams chats. I'm often pinging somebody to go oh hey, what was the answer to this? And they'll reply with sorry that I do it all the time. I'm sure I drive them nuts. I go. What are you sorry for?
Speaker 2:I think it's subliminal for, for many people but I think we need to point it out right, because we shouldn't go around all day apologizing for you know who we are or what we may or may not have done. Right, apologies are are needed and are welcomed and are a very healthy thing, but not this constant.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry yeah, yeah, because we're apologizing for who we are. We're apologizing for not being enough, for not, you know, doing enough, for disappointing someone. It's like that word that sort of makes it acceptable that we haven't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not enough, kind of thing, yeah it does, it assumes something isn't enough right, and often again for me, and sometimes I wonder it is it because it perceived it's it's a question coming from the hierarchy, whereas I go no, I'm just genuinely interested like did that go out, or did we say x or did we say y? If there's no judgment or there's no, there was no good or bad, there was no power or above power, it was a just an interest. So no need to be saying sorry, you know yeah, but that's a good point for everyone listening.
Speaker 1:Check yourself if you hear yourself or if you're going to write stories, delete that shit. Um, stop apologizing. Um, what are some of the other kind of leadership qualities that you do lead with? Because I know when we were chatting, you were talking about, um, like collaboration over competition, which I love, because that's more of the kind of feminine leadership qualities that I'm talking about in the modern leader way. Um, what are some other ones that you feel?
Speaker 2:and actually I'm gonna I have a new word for that now, which I got off a um, a different. I work with a social entrepreneur program, um, to support businesses, and they have a concept which I'm now adopting into into our professional world, which is colobitition, right. So actually it is okay to want to because, as I say, I'm, I do, I do like a goal, I like high standards, right, I do, I'm not saying we run a very passive ship, but I want and I want us to be aiming for, you know, number one in whatever we decide we're going to do, but this concept of, but that's it. I want that to be a collaborative, collaborative environment, but it's still okay to be aiming for something and to want to deliver to a high standard. So competition is is kind of our sky can't claim it, okay, but I'm happy to adopt it. Um, and the other thing for me that's, I don't know, has always had enough space, um, but it's definitely improving is my job as a leader, as I say, is actually to create an environment where my individuals all achieve at their best so that our collective best is better.
Speaker 2:Um, and actually that I try to lean into a lot around. What is it that an individual needs to succeed, um, and maybe that's back to there because I think we should. We're all people, right, we're all individual people. So, a lot of time around that, well, how do our people work? What is important, right, what's the individual development needs for one person versus another? Um, obviously, we have formal technical training. That's available to people in my world, as would many professional kind of technician careers, but I find actually the need is more often in the softer. The softer skills, right, you know how to communicate effectively, um, how to, yeah, how to, you know, stand on a stage and deliver presentations, how to negotiate effectively. All of those sort of things actually are how people succeed.
Speaker 2:So I certainly, with teams I work with, I like to spend time on what are these things that, as people, allow us to be more effective, because if we can do that, then all of the technical stuff actually typically takes care of itself easier. Right, that's more of a process if you want to simplify it, but so I think, um, having teams where there's enough time on individuals, personal, um, whether that's culture or development needs, uh, for me is really important. But, as I say, that's also, I think the best thing I can also do is be very clear on expectations and, um, kind of what is, yeah, what it is we're aiming to do, so that's what I go. Right. It's my job to have to think about the up here is the north star. That's where we're aiming to get to.
Speaker 2:I need to have a plan, but I need to be able to be clear to people right, here's what that is and here's what that means in terms of either expectations on a piece of work, like a deliverable, or expectations on you know the skills and the style that I like. So I think we often forget that leadership also does need to have a. Yeah, you need. Well, my mind, you are bringing people somewhere right, so so it's have where you're going, be clear on the expectations and spend the time to help people understand that and understand what we all need to get there right, because even for me, wherever I'm going will have a different development path for me, as it will for everybody in my team yeah, so that transparency is totally key.
Speaker 1:We all know where we stand when there's transparency. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:I know you're a big advocate for coaching and you've had coaches yourself, and what I loved when we were chatting was you said I ensure I're a big advocate for coaching and you've had coaches yourself. And what I loved when we were chatting was you said I ensure I have a budget every year for coaching and, like you, would encourage other or challenge other leaders that don't necessarily have that. So talk to us a bit about that and what coaching has done for you in your professional and personal life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I say I think it's hugely important we create space, we ask a lot of people and I think in return, we need to help them actually deliver on that. So, yeah, one of the first things when I finally was able to get my own budgets and not have to constantly ask somebody else for money was, right, I want budgets for personal development and some of that obviously is. It's not all coaching, we use other tools and techniques, but definitely, um, I allocate some of that to coaching and that's because I I felt hugely different, um, having gone through my first coaching kind of um experience. So, and and it's probably going to spark another another point we discussed it was funny. I felt like coaching was a amazingly kind of selfish space to be able to work through what's going on for you, like why am I thinking that? Why am I feeling that? It's like your own personal therapy in some ways, but in a, in a, I find, in a helpful manner. Right, it was always about finding a way or a path forward. Um, so that's what I I've benefited personally and professionally, I guess, for me, because that's where it kind of all you're, you are who you are right. So I'd say I benefit both ways.
Speaker 2:Whenever I have gone through coaching, um and I would say I've probably dipped in and out of it though, right. So that is maybe you said earlier, right, you see people at different points, right. So there's times when I go okay, I think I'm going to need a bit of coaching to navigate this, versus there's times when I go okay, I'm, you know, I kind of know what I'm doing for this period of time. Obviously, you know I'll step back from it, because then yeah, but uh, so yeah, once I started creating the budget like that, I always, anytime we're in budget discussions across different, I always say to anybody else make sure you have your development budget right, because I think it's easier for us to look at our, you know, expense budgets, marketing budget, salary, you know, you know all of the kind of rational corporate business things.
Speaker 2:But actually making sure people have a development budget is hugely important and actually I'm quite transparent about that, which was also interesting for the people I work with. I was quite happy to go out when I took over the team I've taken over and I said, okay, I've put in development budget and everyone's like oh wow, we never knew was there a development budget before?
Speaker 2:It was never clear what and I was like, okay, well, no, I have it. I can tell you what. You know how much it is. I can tell you it has to cover this amount of people and I have some ideas on how I'm going to use it. So I feel like we should also be quite transparent about that with our teams, um, so that they know when you're saying we focus on development, you know maybe back to earlier, you're not just saying something, you are facilitating a path to actually deliver it as well. Right? Um, no point me saying I want to help to develop people and then I don't have the means to do it yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that and hopefully more people hear it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So anybody who finally gets access to their own budget. Or even if you don't make sure you're, make sure you're fighting for a specific development budget love it and I've got one eye on time as well.
Speaker 1:Um, but you spoke to me about how you're personally developing in your own personal life.
Speaker 2:Tell us about that because I love this, yeah, yeah. And isn't it funny? Because I realized I said the word selfish about coaching and as I was thinking, I thought oh yeah, this is what I said to you earlier about my other opportunity, where.
Speaker 1:I am.
Speaker 2:I am currently studying part-time, but I am studying architectural history, which clearly has nothing to do with my, my job, um, and it came about so last year, start of last year, so actually I'd come out of quite a hectic period in work, we'd done some restructuring. So I was, I was honestly feeling like, oh, okay, it's, I'm tired, this sort of thing. I try to manage my, my energy. I'm a bit more conscious of it. So I was, I wanted to do something. I was like I want to use my brain again, I want to think again, but I do not want it to be for work. I was just I don't want it to be for work, don't want it to be for home, like I was. Like I feel like I just want something that's for me. Um, and this is where I said to you I feel like it was quite a selfish kind of motivation, but this is where I kind of go. Selfish isn't always bad, right, it's often about protecting yourself. So thankfully, I've come to that realization through coaching as well.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, I signed up to do a course in architectural history. As I said, I probably could have done a light touch version, but that's not me. I tend to be a bit all in um. So I'm now in my second year, I've just headed into my second year, but yeah, it's good fun and it is a space which kind of disconnects me from everything else. Right, and that's what I enjoy about it. Don't enjoy having to do assignments, but I do love. I do love the space to learn and to think about something that's not family, not like work, not normal day-to-day life, right. So it's kind of my yeah, it's my release valve or whatever you, whatever way you want to to do.
Speaker 1:I absolutely love that and I I feel like we do need to reclaim this word selfish, because the opposite of selfish is like selfless and, as we were talking earlier, like we want to be our whole selves. We don't want to be less of ourselves. So, um, I'm here for the selfish. Like let's reclaim the word. Let's like words actually in and of themselves have no meaning. We give them meaning. We made the word mean it's a bad thing to be selfish.
Speaker 1:So I love that you're being selfish and doing something for yourself. And I think some people just get so lost in their work and the family and everyone else that they don't know actually what they would do. So it's like when you get that opportunity to come up for air and just like sink into what it is that you'd really love to do, it just like, yeah, see what comes forth. Like something will come up that you go, oh yeah, I always had a passion for that thing. I've just lost it along the way. So how do I get to bring it back into my life? And it's it, like you said, it's like taking that month off. It gives you that break from the constant thought process around work and about, about everyone else and allows you to your brain just to settle on something a little bit more creative or um, where you need to put a bit more different thought in it.
Speaker 2:Use your brain differently that's what I can see. Yeah, it's the using your brain different, differently, right? It's um yeah whilst it can be tiring, it's also energizing because it is a different part of your brain which is because you want to be doing it.
Speaker 1:It's something you actually want to be doing. So, yeah, yeah, amazing. What's next for you? Are you happy where you're at or do you see yourself like what does success look like for you? Let me ask you that question, because that's a real big topic for me at the moment in terms of, like, how success shifts over a lifetime yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:So I think I mentioned earlier I've never been one to be super planned, so I never quite I don't have a very clear right. I, you know, I want this and definitely for me it's never been about I want that role or I want this, so it's not been about kind of the corporate ladder. But success for me more generally is right, happy, healthy, happy, healthy and doing something that I feel like it makes a difference, right. So they're the sort of things I kind of sense check and, as I was saying to somebody earlier, they're going, but why do you? Why haven't you moved? Or why have you always been in the same industry or you you're a long time at the same company. I guess currently I'm in a very luxurious position of actually what we do as an insurance industry makes a difference, right. So I honestly believe I go, and particularly with life and health claims and underwriting, you know we help people when stuff happens to them, right. So I feel quite a it kind of helps my personal value system going right.
Speaker 2:I choose to work in a corporate world which doesn't always align to my values, but actually what I do in this corporate world does, um, so for me that helps me go. I feel like I'm making a difference, equally with the people I work with. I could only ever work either for or with people that I feel like okay, we're all, we all want to do something, we all want to make a difference and actually we are trying to do something different. So, whilst those sorts of things happen, I go okay, this is success. Right, you happy, healthy, and feel like go, okay, this is success, right, you're happy, healthy and feel like you're having an impact or you're making a difference.
Speaker 2:Um, I think, in terms of what's next would be yeah, so I, I am the type of person who will or won't work, you know well, under certain individuals or certain styles. So I'm not wedded, I'm lucky, I'm not. I feel like I'm quite lucky. I'm not wedded to I have to stay here till retirement because I have to do x. So I, I, and maybe that's something for me as well which is a version of success. So the ability to maintain choice and freedom with that choice for me is that's I go man, you know, tick, tick, tick, right, so because then it is a okay, I'm here. I'm here because I want to be here, not I have to be here.
Speaker 2:Um, so what's next? Yeah, I always go. I don't really know, because it'll be when something in those dimensions changes, I'll go, okay. So what is next? But it would equally have to fulfill similar dimensions. Um, I'd need to be able to work with people and for people where I feel like, okay, we're doing something, we have a goal, it's meaningful, it's gonna matter. Um, and actually I can, you know, I have a role to play in it. That's, that's kind of the the thing for me if I'm thinking about jobs yeah, I love that, thank you Claire.
Speaker 1:I think we'll wrap that up there on that little note. Um, I really appreciate you coming and sharing your wisdom with us and just your, just your view on life, your perspective. It's like it's really refreshing.
Speaker 2:So thank you so much for coming on the show and being my guest well, thank you for inviting me and for not making it as scary as I said. It would have been in my head. So yeah, much appreciated.
Speaker 1:Well, you're so welcome and everyone tuning in. Thanks for being here again and until next week, take care, Thank you.
